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Message started by moneymarketing on 27th Nov, 2013 at 6:20pm

Title: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 27th Nov, 2013 at 6:20pm
I think it is time to open up a discussion of bitcoin. I just heard a story today on the radio about bitcoin in what can be considered the 'main stream media'
up here in Canada, so I think it is safe to say that bitcoin is gaining traction. It seems the US government is not going to go after it at this point and the Chinese government seems to be giving it their blessing as well. I think you can get one for $1000 right now and you can also buy them in fractions.

There is a limited supply of them so I assume they will increase in value going forward. This would be another speculative buy and hold forever lottery ticket for me. I think risking $1000 at this point could easily be a $100,000 payoff in the future.

Has anybody here researched this yet? I am just entering into the exploration side of the market today and think this will be a mania market going forward

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 27th Nov, 2013 at 10:09pm
I think it's too risky for my taste. Growing 500% in value in months?
Things can go both ways. I'm not sure I could handle really big falls. And you bet you'll have them. Something this speculative is bound to have big ups and downs.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 28th Nov, 2013 at 1:07am

moneymarketing wrote on 27th Nov, 2013 at 6:20pm:
I think risking $1000 at this point could easily be a $100,000 payoff in the future.


Holy stuff... I just checked and you're right.. I remember having looked at it one or two of weeks ago
and its value was ~$400 per BitCoin!

Is it really growing that fast?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 28th Nov, 2013 at 9:19am

ruicarlov wrote on 27th Nov, 2013 at 10:09pm:
I think it's too risky for my taste. Growing 500% in value in months?
Things can go both ways. I'm not sure I could handle really big falls. And you bet you'll have them. Something this speculative is bound to have big ups and downs.


I agree. The money you use is definitely money you can afford to lose. My trading experience tells me that this is one of those that you buy, throw in the closet and don't look at for a few years. Even now though I'm thinking of holding off because I have other things to do with my investments that are working for me.

Just think, you could have bought those coins for pennies a few years ago  :'(

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 28th Nov, 2013 at 11:51am
Even in a buy-and-hold method, with something this volatile you should really pick a good entry point. And no mater how you look at it, this looks like a baaaaad entry point.
Not buying when something is really really popular and greatly valued is Investing 101.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 28th Nov, 2013 at 6:37pm

ruicarlov wrote on 28th Nov, 2013 at 11:51am:
Even in a buy-and-hold method, with something this volatile you should really pick a good entry point. And no mater how you look at it, this looks like a baaaaad entry point.
Not buying when something is really really popular and greatly valued is Investing 101.


I don't think it has become really popular yet. I think it is just getting started

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 28th Nov, 2013 at 8:42pm
Take a look at the Year-to-Date chart and tell me if this last month doesn't look like a complete bubble. It's nearly a vertical line upwards. I'm not saying that in 10 years it won't be higher, but this is simply too much, too fast.
All alert signs are blaring "warning".

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 28th Nov, 2013 at 10:06pm
I know, I've seen the charts. I guess this is what makes a market. you have one guy on one side saying "It can't go any higher!" You have another guy on the other side saying "It can't go any lower!"

Thus you have a deal  :money ;D

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 29th Nov, 2013 at 1:28pm
It's nearly impossible to accurately time the market. Finding those illusory inversion points comes down to dumb luck. So the best we can do is play with probabilities. If something's very hot, it's much more likely to suffer a correction soon, once the euphoria calls down.

Remember Gold?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 29th Nov, 2013 at 6:23pm

ruicarlov wrote on 29th Nov, 2013 at 1:28pm:
It's nearly impossible to accurately time the market. Finding those illusory inversion points comes down to dumb luck. So the best we can do is play with probabilities. If something's very hot, it's much more likely to suffer a correction soon, once the euphoria calls down.

Remember Gold?


Yes, you are right. Timing is difficult (not impossible) probabilities are a better trade (that is actually how I structure my trades as an active trader). That said, one of the most predictable drivers of the market is the euphoria/ fear of the crowd and mass psychology. This is essentially where the trade is for bitcoin right now. It is in its early euphoric stage. Figuring out how long this will last is where the money can be made (and lost).

You also need to understand that bitcoins are a finite entity at this point. As far as we know now they are limiting the supply. Not even gold has that benefit(due to us not knowing how much is truly out there and the paper gold trading market that counterfeits gold in a pseudo market). With that understanding, bitcoin pricing should be a direct reflection of central bank monetary printing which is also going on at a parabolic rate (just google a chart of the Fed's balance sheet or the $15 trillion that the Chinese central bank recently created in order to support their banks).

The only thing I think that could make the bitcoin price crash over the long term (short term we could see volatility) is if the bitcoin creators decide to increase the supply of bitcoins. At that moment, the confidence game that is bitcoin is broken and it will be every person for himself

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by dansbanners on 29th Nov, 2013 at 6:30pm
Is there like an official bitcoin website or something?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 29th Nov, 2013 at 7:02pm

moneymarketing wrote on 29th Nov, 2013 at 6:23pm:
Yes, you are right. Timing is difficult (not impossible) probabilities are a better trade (that is actually how I structure my trades as an active trader). That said, one of the most predictable drivers of the market is the euphoria/ fear of the crowd and mass psychology. This is essentially where the trade is for bitcoin right now. It is in its early euphoric stage. Figuring out how long this will last is where the money can be made (and lost).

You also need to understand that bitcoins are a finite entity at this point. As far as we know now they are limiting the supply. Not even gold has that benefit(due to us not knowing how much is truly out there and the paper gold trading market that counterfeits gold in a pseudo market). With that understanding, bitcoin pricing should be a direct reflection of central bank monetary printing which is also going on at a parabolic rate (just google a chart of the Fed's balance sheet or the $15 trillion that the Chinese central bank recently created in order to support their banks).

The only thing I think that could make the bitcoin price crash over the long term (short term we could see volatility) is if the bitcoin creators decide to increase the supply of bitcoins. At that moment, the confidence game that is bitcoin is broken and it will be every person for himself


The main issue I have with bitcoin is precisely that short-term volatility. Some good news can make it crash or rise 100%. Could you really stomach having lost 99% of your capital at one point in time?
It takes a stomach of steel not to sell it.

As for the long term, being something virtual there is indeed a risk supply can be increased beyond what is planned.
We never got alchemists that could turn lead into gold. But consider the speed at wich information technologies have progressed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we got some "virtual alchemists" some years down the line. It's a lot easier to go beyond the "impossible" in the virtual word than in the real world.
But of course that this may never come to pass.

It's the short term that's really bugging me.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 29th Nov, 2013 at 8:39pm

dansbanners wrote on 29th Nov, 2013 at 6:30pm:
Is there like an official bitcoin website or something?



It is sort of like egold whereby there are exchanger sites that trade bitcoins. We would be dealing with the exchangers

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 29th Nov, 2013 at 8:45pm

ruicarlov wrote on 29th Nov, 2013 at 7:02pm:
The main issue I have with bitcoin is precisely that short-term volatility. Some good news can make it crash or rise 100%. Could you really stomach having lost 99% of your capital at one point in time?
It takes a stomach of steel not to sell it.

As for the long term, being something virtual there is indeed a risk supply can be increased beyond what is planned.
We never got alchemists that could turn lead into gold. But consider the speed at wich information technologies have progressed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we got some "virtual alchemists" some years down the line. It's a lot easier to go beyond the "impossible" in the virtual word than in the real world.
But of course that this may never come to pass.

It's the short term that's really bugging me.


I would only buy this if I were able to stomach a 100% loss going in. In other words, the money invested in this trade would not be money I couldn't afford to lose and/or sit on for at least five if not ten years. If you cannot afford to lose it all then yes, run like the wind in the other direction. I would not recommend anyone risk anything more than 1% of their money on this. The nice part is you don't have to buy a whole coin. You can buy a part of a coin or a dollar amount.

Some folks are predicting the coins could fetch $1 million each some day. That is very possible since they are just reflecting the debasement of other fiat currencies

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 29th Nov, 2013 at 10:00pm
I've been reading some info on this and in case anyone is interested I'll share it :

Wiki Page

Current Rate

From a merchant's point of view also it seems really really interesting..
As I read from here there are no chargebacks with bitcoin which makes it 100% merchant friendly.

I'll consider adding it to my site's payment options if I see that more and more people tend use it..
Hmm.. I could make a poll on this and see how people will react.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 29th Nov, 2013 at 10:26pm
Also I've just found out about BitCoin mining.. and I can tell it's also interesting.
Since I have my computer on 24/7 and I have a high end PC I could use it as a mining center..
I'll keep on researching it for now..

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by dansbanners on 30th Nov, 2013 at 12:19am

moneymarketing wrote on 29th Nov, 2013 at 8:39pm:
It is sort of like egold whereby there are exchanger sites that trade bitcoins. We would be dealing with the exchangers

So should I look for what would be like a bitcoin exchanger website?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 30th Nov, 2013 at 3:51am

dansbanners wrote on 30th Nov, 2013 at 12:19am:
So should I look for what would be like a bitcoin exchanger website?



Yes, that is where I have sort of stopped at this point. I'm not sure I'll pursue it father. I was looking for one that took Paypal but those are rare apparently

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 30th Nov, 2013 at 5:17am

dansbanners wrote on 30th Nov, 2013 at 12:19am:
So should I look for what would be like a bitcoin exchanger website?


Apparently MtGox is the biggest one going

https://www.mtgox.com/

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by dansbanners on 30th Nov, 2013 at 11:47pm
So is a bitcoin like a share of a stock? Such as 1 bitcoin = $5 or something?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 30th Nov, 2013 at 11:59pm
It's more of a currency pair than a stock. It's more kinda like BITUSD, or BITEUR.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 1st Dec, 2013 at 1:45am

dansbanners wrote on 30th Nov, 2013 at 11:47pm:
So is a bitcoin like a share of a stock? Such as 1 bitcoin = $5 or something?



It is like a currency (it is a bartering instrument in its strictest definition) that, at this point, no government can print more of. So, it is a finite asset from that perspective. Thus the price fluctuation is more a reflection of how many dollars are out there. As more dollars get printed the price of each bit coin goes up (it takes more dollars to buy them). It is, all other things being equal, a measure of currency inflation. Of course, all other things are not equal and thus there is also an element of hype and euphoria which is where the risk is.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 1st Dec, 2013 at 2:39pm
Regarding the risk it is clearly stated here :


Quote:
Bitcoin price is volatile

The price of a bitcoin can unpredictably increase or decrease over a short period of time due to its young economy, novel nature, and sometimes illiquid markets. Consequently, keeping your savings with Bitcoin is not recommended at this point. Bitcoin should be seen like a high risk asset, and you should never store money that you cannot afford to lose with Bitcoin. If you receive payments with Bitcoin, many service providers can convert them to your local currency.


I keep reading more and more on this subject. Looks like it may lack privacy and security if not used under specific guidelines.
A considered "safe" way is to have an offline computer that will be used to sign your transactions, and then transfer them
through a USB stick to an online computer to complete the money sending.. However there are several privacy matters to be
considered when using Bitcoin..

All transactions are public and stored permanently on online servers so anyone could practically access it and see how many
Bitcoins you have and how many you have spent at any time. There are some ways to work around this like creating new
bitcoin addresses with every transaction plus using a fake IP generator to not let your own be traced. There's too much stuff
regarding privacy so for more information on bitcoin privacy read here.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 1st Dec, 2013 at 3:21pm

SolidSnake wrote on 1st Dec, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Regarding the risk it is clearly stated here :


I keep reading more and more on this subject. Looks like it may lack privacy and security if not used under specific guidelines.
A considered "safe" way is to have an offline computer that will be used to sign your transactions, and then transfer them
through a USB stick to an online computer to complete the money sending.. However there are several privacy matters to be
considered when using Bitcoin..

All transactions are public and stored permanently on online servers so anyone could practically access it and see how many
Bitcoins you have and how many you have spent at any time. There are some ways to work around this like creating new
bitcoin addresses with every transaction plus using a fake IP generator to not let your own be traced. There's too much stuff
regarding privacy so for more information on bitcoin privacy read here.



Can you maybe hold them under a company name in order to protect your privacy?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 1st Dec, 2013 at 11:47pm
Give it some time. Funds and ETFs following the currency are about to appear.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 1st Dec, 2013 at 11:54pm

ruicarlov wrote on 1st Dec, 2013 at 11:47pm:
Give it some time. Funds and ETFs following the currency are about to appear.


Now that could be interesting. I wouldn't mind setting up an option hedge on something like this. Where did you read about that? I love trading volatility (I have some positions in the VIX markets) so this could be a nice 'currency' addition

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 2nd Dec, 2013 at 12:13pm
There currenly a fund for investing in Bitcoins, but SecondMarket. However, it's not as tightly regulated as common mutual funds.

Besides that there are plans to create a Bitcoin ETF: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101190181

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 2nd Dec, 2013 at 7:03pm

ruicarlov wrote on 2nd Dec, 2013 at 12:13pm:
There currenly a fund for investing in Bitcoins, but SecondMarket. However, it's not as tightly regulated as common mutual funds.

Besides that there are plans to create a Bitcoin ETF: [ur]http://www.cnbc.com/id/101190181
[/url]


Thanks for that. It definitely looks promising. I hope they can put it together and will be looking for it to launch

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 9th Dec, 2013 at 5:28pm
It seems the bitcoin is being strongly linked to demand by China. Throw a bit of bad news about Chinese policies regarding Bitcoin and the prices makes a little dive.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 9th Dec, 2013 at 6:28pm

ruicarlov wrote on 9th Dec, 2013 at 5:28pm:
It seems the bitcoin is being strongly linked to demand by China. Throw a bit of bad news about Chinese policies regarding Bitcoin and the prices makes a little dive.



Yes, it has definitely hit some turbulence

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 9th Dec, 2013 at 10:07pm

ruicarlov wrote on 2nd Dec, 2013 at 12:13pm:
There currenly a fund for investing in Bitcoins, but SecondMarket. However, it's not as tightly regulated as common mutual funds.

Besides that there are plans to create a Bitcoin ETF: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101190181

Oh,  :censored! I've just realized who these guys are! The Winklevoss twins were the guys that came up with the
social networking idea before Mark Zuckerberg implemented it and launched Facebook! I have seen the movie called
"Social Network" regarding this case and I realised who they were only after looking at them and hearing their voice..  ;D
They actor that played their role did an amazing acting job.. :)

Quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Harvard students Cameron Winklevoss, Tyler Winklevoss, and Divya Narendra accused Zuckerberg of intentionally making them believe he would help them build a social network called HarvardConnection.com (later called ConnectU).[62] They filed a lawsuit in 2004, but it was dismissed on a technicality on March 28, 2007. It was refiled soon thereafter in federal court in Boston. Facebook countersued in regards to Social Butterfly, a project put out by The Winklevoss Chang Group, an alleged partnership between ConnectU and i2hub. On June 25, 2008, the case settled and Facebook agreed to transfer over 1.2 million common shares and pay $20 million in cash.[63]

Zuckerberg's counselor suggested that he should simply pay them like this case was a speeding ticket.. and she was right
considering the amount of money he earned afterwards.. So, these twins wouldn't let this opportunity pass like when they lost facebook..  :money

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 24th Feb, 2014 at 3:51pm
Looks like there's trouble at Mt. Gox and the bitcoin value plummeted in that exchange. $135?

Bitcoin is not good for your heart. If it doesn't have a relatively stable value then I don't see how it can be used as a currency, PTC world or not.

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 24th Feb, 2014 at 6:14pm

ruicarlov wrote on 24th Feb, 2014 at 3:51pm:
Looks like there's trouble at Mt. Gox and the bitcoin value plummeted in that exchange. $135?

Bitcoin is not good for your heart. If it doesn't have a relatively stable value then I don't see how it can be used as a currency, PTC world or not.


Yes, I have been following it (at a safe distance  ;D) I'm kinda glad I didn't jump into it

the last I heard the Mt Gox CEO resigned from the bitcoin foundation board

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-23/bitcoin-prices-slide-after-mtgox-ceo-resigns-foundation-board

This whole mess is spinning out of control fast

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 24th Feb, 2014 at 6:18pm

ruicarlov wrote on 24th Feb, 2014 at 3:51pm:
Bitcoin is not good for your heart. If it doesn't have a relatively stable value then I don't see how it can be used as a currency, PTC world or not.


It can be traded  ;D

I think I have been in the markets too long. I'm turning into a leather hided cowboy  :money

You know you've been in the market too long when you look at a chart like bitcoin and think, "I can make money at that."  :mon_eyes  [smiley=crazy.gif]

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by ruicarlov on 24th Feb, 2014 at 7:28pm
It's either that or you've turned completely nuts  ;D
Honestly, sometimes it seems like that chart is practicing bungee-jumping. Not to mention you can't apply technical analysis like you do on commodities, stocks or bonds.
This is so speculative that every bit of news can cause one heck of a change.

Remember when that fake news about Obama being shot make the USA markets crash for a couple of minutes? Imagine something like that applied to this market

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 14th Jun, 2014 at 3:07pm
50 Interesting Bitcoin Facts

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/50-interesting-bitcoin-facts/

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 6th Jul, 2014 at 5:37pm
Recent Happenings in the Digital Coin World

glad I didn't jump in. It seems the bullies are close to ruling the roost

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-05/recent-happenings-digital-coin-world

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 3rd Nov, 2015 at 8:57am
Whoa!

This has come alive the last little while

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

:o

I've been taking cashouts at PV via BTC in the hopes of building up a bit of savings but this jumped over 13% in the last 24 hours! Something is happening in the BTC world

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 4th Nov, 2015 at 8:36am
So the Chinese market is opening up to bitcoin again. That is potentially 22 trillion dollars worth of savings that is trying to exit the country.

So this is why BTC is up over $200 in a short while




Quote:
As of this moment, the total value of bitcoin is up from the $3 billion two months ago to a little over $5 billion. That means the ratio of Chinese deposits (at around $22 trillion) to bitcoin, is down to a far more "conservative" 4,400x.



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-04/bitcoin-soars-14-month-highs-major-exchange-eases-access-chinese

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by vazonov11 on 4th Nov, 2015 at 3:33pm
да, бдт опять в ходу.

[edit]Google Translate: Yes, I go back to the BDT.[/edit]

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by SolidSnake on 4th Nov, 2015 at 11:04pm
[smiley=00-welcome.gif]

Welcome to the forum vazonov11!

Since this is an English speaking forum, could you please post in English so that other members can understand and discuss?

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 25th Nov, 2015 at 9:42pm

Quote:
Introducing the Shift Card

Today, we’re excited to introduce the first US-issued bitcoin debit card, the Shift Card. The Shift Card is a VISA debit card that currently allows Coinbase users in twenty-four states in the U.S. to spend bitcoin online and offline at over 38 million merchants worldwide.


more @ https://blog.coinbase.com/2015/11/20/introducing-the-shift-card/

Title: Re: Bitcoin
Post by moneymarketing on 12th Dec, 2015 at 12:06am
WOW! BTC up $33 today as of this writing

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

:o

Some say this is connected to the Chinese money trying to get out of the country

This is looking even better in Canadian currency  :money

I still have a dream of one BTC going for $50,000  :D

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